www.culturecult.com/art_notes.htm
"I suppose it all depends on what you expect a civilization to offer. The Maya, and the Aztecs too, offered barbarism plus pyramids. "
"The ripples of Greek civilization spread globally, and deserved to. There were no ripples from the Maya. No enlightenment. Nothing. Just art and masonry and the dried blood of long-dead sacrificial victims. That is not nearly enough."
Pericles:
" Our political system does not compete with institutions which are elsewhere in force. We do not copy our neighbours, but try to be an example. Our administration favors the many instead of the few: that is why it is called democracy.
The laws afford equal justice to all alike in their private disputes, but we do not ignore the claims of excellence. When a citizen distinguishes himself, then he will be called to serve the state, in preference to others, not as a matter of privilege but as a reward of merit; and poverty is no bar…
The freedom we enjoy extends also to ordinary life; we are not suspicious of one another, and do not nag our neighbour if he chooses to go his own way. But this freedom does not make us lawless. We are taught to respect the magistrates and the laws, and never to forget that we must protect the injured. And we are also taught to observe those unwritten laws whose sanction lies only in the universal feeling of what is right.
Our city is thrown open to the world; we never expel a foreigner. We are free to live exactly as we please, and yet we are always ready to face danger. We love beauty without indulging in fancies, and although we try to improve our intellect, this does not weaken our will.
To admit one’s poverty is no disgrace with us; but we consider it disgraceful not to make an effort to avoid it. An Athenian citizen does not neglect public affairs when attending to his private business… We consider a man who takes no interest in the state not as harmless, but as useless; and although only a few may originate a policy, we are all able to judge it.
We do not look upon discussion as a stumbling-block in the way of political action, but as an indispensable preliminary to acting wisely. We believe that happiness is the fruit of freedom and freedom that of valor, and we do not shrink from the dangers of war.
To sum up, I claim that Athens is the School of Hellas, and that the individual Athenian grows up to develop a happy versatility, a readiness for emergencies, and self-reliance. "
"I suppose it all depends on what you expect a civilization to offer. The Maya, and the Aztecs too, offered barbarism plus pyramids. "
"The ripples of Greek civilization spread globally, and deserved to. There were no ripples from the Maya. No enlightenment. Nothing. Just art and masonry and the dried blood of long-dead sacrificial victims. That is not nearly enough."
Pericles:
" Our political system does not compete with institutions which are elsewhere in force. We do not copy our neighbours, but try to be an example. Our administration favors the many instead of the few: that is why it is called democracy.
The laws afford equal justice to all alike in their private disputes, but we do not ignore the claims of excellence. When a citizen distinguishes himself, then he will be called to serve the state, in preference to others, not as a matter of privilege but as a reward of merit; and poverty is no bar…
The freedom we enjoy extends also to ordinary life; we are not suspicious of one another, and do not nag our neighbour if he chooses to go his own way. But this freedom does not make us lawless. We are taught to respect the magistrates and the laws, and never to forget that we must protect the injured. And we are also taught to observe those unwritten laws whose sanction lies only in the universal feeling of what is right.
Our city is thrown open to the world; we never expel a foreigner. We are free to live exactly as we please, and yet we are always ready to face danger. We love beauty without indulging in fancies, and although we try to improve our intellect, this does not weaken our will.
To admit one’s poverty is no disgrace with us; but we consider it disgraceful not to make an effort to avoid it. An Athenian citizen does not neglect public affairs when attending to his private business… We consider a man who takes no interest in the state not as harmless, but as useless; and although only a few may originate a policy, we are all able to judge it.
We do not look upon discussion as a stumbling-block in the way of political action, but as an indispensable preliminary to acting wisely. We believe that happiness is the fruit of freedom and freedom that of valor, and we do not shrink from the dangers of war.
To sum up, I claim that Athens is the School of Hellas, and that the individual Athenian grows up to develop a happy versatility, a readiness for emergencies, and self-reliance. "
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Fri, October 14, 2005 - 1:14 AMThe Mayans and Aztecs had cities, governments (well, ok, despotic governments), organized religion, art, architechture, agriculture and written records (most regretably burned by the Spanish). They also had the wheel (which they only used for children's toys, since, due to an accident of geography, they had no draft animals).
The Greeks had all of that, plus a lot more: math, philosophy, theatre and democracy. Certainly, they were more advanced than the Mayans and Aztecs, but that alone is not enough to exclude the latter from being civilizations. It would be hard to come up with a definition of civilization that excludes the Mayans and Aztecs, but includes the Sumerians and Egyptians.
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Fri, October 14, 2005 - 8:20 AMMy thoughts after skimming this--First of all, he's a bad historian to just take Perikles' words at face value. Naturally, he's going to talk about all of Athens' strong points; there are huge holes in Perikles' speech. Sandall's disingenuous if he doesn't mention Greek slavery or the treatment of women. Second, he just seems like a total prick. I'm not even sure what his definition of 'civilization' or 'enlightenment' is. He criticizes the Mayan violent 'barbarism,' and yet thinks Athens was put on the map because the citizens were all brilliant scientists and artists who would never harm a flea.
Running out the door...that was just a quick impression. -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Fri, October 14, 2005 - 10:23 AM"Sandall's disingenuous if he doesn't mention Greek slavery or the treatment of women. "
Considering that Greeks treated slaves and women better than any other civilization until Victorian England, and in fact, had invented the idea of thinking there might be something wrong with treating people like chattel, that would be kind of a dumb thing to do, now, wouldn't it? Unless you're one of those "bite the hand that feeds you" people who thinks it is clever to do nothing but denigrate the very civilization which has raised you from the mud.
Anyway, he didn't talk about the way the Mayas treated women and slaves either.
I find it hysterically funny (and also sadly inevitable, considering the source) that you scare quote the word barbarism as applied to committing human sacrifice. Then again, considering your tastes, perhaps you'd feel more at home on a Chimu pot running stingray spines through your tongue.
-Lupo -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Fri, October 14, 2005 - 11:02 AM>>Anyway, he didn't talk about the way the Mayas treated women and slaves either.
"At the bottom of Maya society were slaves who were convicted criminals, poor commoners who sold themselves into bondage, captives of war, or individuals acquired by trade. Slaves performed menial tasks for their owners and they were often sacrificed when their owners died so that they could continue to serve in the afterlife."
encarta.msn.com/text_76157...zation.html
Concerning the role of women, we know little. Mayan cities were ruled exclusively by men. However, women of the upper classes had the same elongated heads as the men, indicating high status. -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Fri, October 14, 2005 - 1:04 PMLupo,
You are the sole reason why so many people have left this tribe. I am merely the latest.
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Fri, October 14, 2005 - 6:25 PMForrest, thanks for posting that quote on Mayan slavery. It's not terribly dissimilar from Greek slavery--barring the sacrifice part, of course. -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Fri, October 14, 2005 - 10:34 PMFrancesca, this is more your area than mine, so correct me if I'm wrong...
Higher class Athenian women were expected to be neither seen nor heard by anyone except their families after marriage. In fact, the more isolated a woman was, the higher her status.
And given both Aristotle's and Galen's descriptions of women's bodies (colder, wetter, with wandering wombs)...really, women were treated well? And women being treated well in the Victorian period is a load of shit. Rest cures, the "hysterical" woman...lord save us from patronizing patriarchy. -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Sat, October 15, 2005 - 9:19 AMSounds about right, Melissa. Athenian upper-class women pretty much only left the house for religious festivals and weddings. Mostly they just sat around and wove all day.
And I think it's with Galen that the term "hysterical" is coined--it's a condition befalling a woman, characterized by her uterus detatching itself and moving around the body, causing some kind of neuroses.
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Sat, October 15, 2005 - 11:46 PM>"Unless you're one of those 'bite the hand that feeds you' people who thinks it is clever to do nothing but denigrate the very civilization which has raised you from the mud."
To view Greek civilization as the sole fountainhead from which every asepct of western civilization and modernity has sprung is ridiculously myopic. -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Thu, November 3, 2005 - 2:46 PM"To view Greek civilization as the sole fountainhead from which every asepct of western civilization and modernity has sprung is ridiculously myopic."
Only if you don't know anything about it.
Greek civilization is the sole fountainhead from which every aspect of western civilization and modernity has sprung. Judaism is the secondary fountainhead. But, without the ancient jews, there still would have been western civilization. Without the Greeks; no science, no philosophy, no medicine, no math (that's right: they invented the idea of the proof, which is all that math is), no history, no clocks, no democracy, no nuthin.
Every civilization which has been touched by the Greeks has completely dominated other civilizations it comes into contact with. That is why there is no comparing the Mayas to the Greeks. The Mayas, in comparison were stone age primitive barbarians. The fact that some people cannot abide this simple statement of fact is a sign of our present degeneracy. Though of course, Plato was the original "I hate my own culture" pinko academic, so even this originates with the ancient greeks.
-Lupo -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Thu, November 3, 2005 - 3:06 PMSome suggested reading for you:
www.amazon.com/exec/obido...688-1169566 -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Thu, November 3, 2005 - 4:15 PMI've read the (non amazonian) reviews of that some years ago: sheer rubbish.
That sort of nonsense is about as respectable as the opinions of Leonard Jeffries. If you're curious:
www.nbufront.org/
He used to be a professor somewhere too.
-Lupo
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Fri, November 4, 2005 - 7:31 PMFor chrissakes, even the Greeks themselves credited the Egyptians as the source of much knowledge. -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Thu, November 10, 2005 - 6:56 PM" For chrissakes, even the Greeks themselves credited the Egyptians as the source of much knowledge."
If you can't tell the difference between what the Greeks did and what the Egyptians did, you need to return your Doctorate to the state of California, stat.
The Egyptians were a theocratic ant-state whose greatest thinkers (who were they? it is a mystery) couldn't tell you how a right angle worked if their entire civilization depended on it. The Greeks invented logic, math, and lots of other things they apparently didn't teach you in graduate school.
-Lupo
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Thu, November 10, 2005 - 11:21 PMYeah, uh-huh....Whatever you say....Thank you for illuminating me once again. I prostrate myself at the shrine of your vast intellect.
Translation: SNORE. -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Sat, December 23, 2006 - 8:33 PMi know, all this history stuff, is, like, so boring! let's paint our toenails!
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Sun, June 25, 2006 - 11:59 AMThe Egyptians were by no means as theocratic in practice as they were in theory, and were particularly more flexible during the early Old Kingdom and much of the New Kingdom. They may not have discovered the Pythagorean Theorem, but they did know how to make and how to use right angles, and frequently did so for their famous monumental construction projects. I'll agree that, compared to the Greek city-states, their culture was collectivists, but they were on the whole remarkably humane "ants," who invented the concept of a universal morality and moral obligations owed even by the strong to the weak -- the concept of Ma'at ("truth, justice, righteousness") which is at the root of our own modern Western morality. And they practiced it -- as far as we can tell, their absolute monarchy was normally exercised fairly mildly on the people, basically because Egyptian kings wanted to be remembered as righteous rulers rather than as oppressors.
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Fri, November 4, 2005 - 6:11 AMI am not sure if a culture that is dominating another culture means it is superior. More likely the dominating culture focused more on the development of weapons.
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Sun, June 25, 2006 - 11:54 AMUm, I don't know if it's true that the _Athenian_ Greeks treated their slaves with greater kindness than other ancient peoples. The general rule in the ancient world was: the freer the citizens, the more oppressed the slaves. You see the same principle operating in Rome: slaves were treated like dirt under the Republic and their status gradually improved under the Empire.
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Fri, October 14, 2005 - 11:09 PMInteresting...considering the theories that Pericles' speech writer was his lover the non-Athenian citizen and hetaira, Aspasia. -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Sat, October 15, 2005 - 9:22 AMAre you sure Plato wasn't joking? -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Sun, October 16, 2005 - 9:18 AMWhat is this all about "Mayan civilization isn't worthy"?
Try reading about their philosophy and science. Just because we ended up killing them with arms, but mostly with germs - 95 % of them and burning most of their books before we managed to understand them being all Christian and close-minded, does not mean theirs was not a great civilization. I talk in a greater sense about Mayan + Aztec and American in general.
Please read "1491" first before being all judgmental and dismissive.
Our culture (The prevailing one from the old continent) has the habit of being that way. Here we are "Armchair Historians". For me that means more than just few people coming together to put down civilizations just so we feel a little better for a while or do not understand them.
Also there is no Civilization Top Tel List anywhere for as far as I know. If there was, who can be an un-biased judge? Someone from neither Mayan nor our civilization I suppose. The Martians? -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Mon, October 24, 2005 - 1:54 AMSandall references Jared Diamond, but not his earlier and more influential book Guns, Germs and Steel. To simplify, the superior deadliness of Old World germs and warfare and the preference for slavery instead of cannibalism in the Old World were all due to the same cause, the Old World's possession of domestic animals. Rather than discuss any of Diamond's science, Sandall writes him off as simply a sentimentalist in the first sentence, then goes on to regurgitate the familiar conservative riffs about the greatness of Western civilization vs. self-hating liberal multiculturalists.
For most civilizations, there are little or no surviving records to show whether they engaged in the kind of philosophical, scientific, and political speculation well documented for classical Greece. In the case of the Maya, this was helped along by the Spanish mass burning of their books. We do know the Maya kept an accurate calendar which required mathematical skills. Philosophy in China and India is well documented including parallels for many of the ideas credited to the Greeks, but has not gotten the same PR in the West as Greece. Greek philosophy was propagated as a prestige item and badge of solidarity for Western imperialists almost from the beginning, in first in Hellenistic Ptolemaic Egypt which sponsored the Alexandria library, then for the Romans, and later for Renaissance and modern Europe. -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Tue, October 25, 2005 - 5:28 PMIs there anything that we do today that we got solely from Mayan culture? I mean, there is a lot of overlap among cultures, yes? If there were things that we got from Mayans that we couldn't have gotten elsewhere, that would be an interesting point to consider. -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Wed, October 26, 2005 - 7:56 PM"Is there anything that we do today that we got solely from Mayan culture?"
Chocolate! -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Mon, October 31, 2005 - 9:05 PMNot just chocolate, but also vanilla!
And we got guacamole, tortillas, and tomatoes from other Mesoamericans.
More significantly, I think one can argue that the psychedelic culture of the 60s and beyond was largely the result of influence from Mesoamerica and South America that was brought into the American mainstream via individuals such as Gordon Wasson, William S. Burroughs, and Allen Ginsberg. The use of mushrooms, peyote, and ayahuasca, which are still with us as part of a huge entheogenic subculture, is *primarily* from the indigenous cultures of the Americas, although the marijuana/hashish culture of the Middle East did play a part in its popularity and acceptance (if not legality). -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Thu, November 3, 2005 - 2:40 PM"More significantly, I think one can argue that the psychedelic culture of the 60s and beyond was largely the result of influence from Mesoamerica and South America that was brought into the American mainstream via individuals such as (a bunch of mostly dead white guys)"
I rest my case.
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Sun, June 25, 2006 - 5:24 PMLet's not forget the enema!
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Thu, November 3, 2005 - 3:00 PM"We do know the Maya kept an accurate calendar which required mathematical skills. "
Actually, thanks to Richard Feynman, we know a lot about this, and, no, it didn't require a lot of mathematical skills. I won't bother explaining why, as you would have to know some math to at least the ancient greek level.
But, suffice it to say, what the Mayas achieved was done by many other stone age barbarian cultures, such as that of the beaker people in europe, the Maltese megalith builders, the Anasazi people and the Sumerians.
As for "imperialists" figuring into all this: who cares? It doesn't matter if naughty people you do not like used the ancient greeks for their own ends; the truth is what matters.
-Lupo -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Sat, November 5, 2005 - 8:38 AMso, the mayan wren't responsible for the 0?
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Sat, November 5, 2005 - 8:46 AMI thought it was Indian mathematicians who came up with the concept of zero as something other than a place holder. -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Sat, November 5, 2005 - 9:09 AMWell, history accredits it to the mayan, but you know, we don't know as much as this dude here, so probably history is wrong.
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Sat, November 5, 2005 - 9:17 AMThe thing is that with the semi-parallel, but separate, development of cultures in the Eastern and Western hemispheres, it's entirely possible that the concept of zero was discovered in both India and Central America almost simultaneously, but independent of one another. -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Sat, November 5, 2005 - 10:00 AMNods, true.
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Sat, November 5, 2005 - 10:06 AMoff topic, but i think this whole "mayans are boobs" topic is quite done...
It's amazing to me that the mathmatical and philsophical importance of "0" took so "long" to discover/recoginze.
we just take for granted teh concept of "none" "nul" and therefore make it a number. Home many things are there. well there are none. hence it's a number.
but to think that at some point, somone had to actually quantify, describe, etc., that concept. and then that others didn't recognize the greatness of teh concept - that boggles my mind. :-)
course, i live in a world driven by 1s and 0s. ;-0
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Sat, November 5, 2005 - 11:52 AM"it's entirely possible that the concept of zero was discovered in both India and Central America almost simultaneously, but independent of one another."
Yes, this appears to be the case with zero. Robert Kaplan, a professor mathematics at Harvard University who has written a history of zero titled 'The Nothing That Is: A Natural History of Zero", outlines the origins of zero in a brief article for Scientific American, complete with a timeline and a little blinking map that shows the concept's independent development around the globe: www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Sat, November 5, 2005 - 11:57 AMFrom that link, it sounds like two critical things exist.
1) the role of zero. is it just a place holder (1023, 1402), or does it have a distintive function in the math as the *first* number... O, 1, 2, 3,... and independant on it's own right.
2) who got told about this great 0 thingy, and what did the next group do with it.
I remain unclear about Mayan Zero. does it ONLY have place value function, or is it also number in and of itself?
and, why didn't it get passed on to the next group of people?
thanks for the link, it helped - even if it did leave me confused. confusion because of new info, and not confusion created by head in the sand thinking, is not a bad thing. Just leads to more questions, and eventually non-confusions.
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Sun, June 25, 2006 - 12:01 PMZero was independently invented by the Mayans and (Hindu) Indians, as far as we know. -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Sun, June 25, 2006 - 1:10 PMAnd earlier I stated that it was my understanding thaat the Mayans had no written language. This was correct (to the extent that it reflected what I thought). And totally incorrect when it comes to those nasty little things called facts. In fact the problem was that their language took a tremendous amount of time to decode, and was only decoded in the 1990s. So little was known about the Mayan language when I was going to school, and without a rosetta stone to help translate it required a titanic effort to figure it out. Sorry for being wrong about that, but it should would have been nice if someone had corrected me, maybe even pointed me in the right direction. The real facts were more interesting to learn than listening to people call me an asshole because I was wrong! -
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Re: Why Mayan civilization isn't worthy of the name
Sun, July 2, 2006 - 8:51 PM"In fact the problem was that their language took a tremendous amount of time to decode, and was only decoded in the 1990s."
Well, parts of it (the calendar) were figured out before the end of the 19th century. By the 1950s, it was possible to read the names of people and places. Scholars began to read the glyphs phonetically in the 1960s, but this didn't really take off until the early 1970s. Quite a lot had been deciphered by the 1990s, with the work continuing up to the present day.
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